Helsingissä luento Pareconista

Helsingin leirissä tiistaina 1.11. klo 14-16:

Parecon Finland ry kutsuu keskustelemaan Helsingin torikokoukseen talouden perustavanlaatuisista ja ajankohtaisista kysymyksistä. Miltä demokraattisten ihanteiden mukainen vaihtoehto kapitalismille ja keskusjohtoiselle suunnitelmataloudelle voisi näyttää? Lisäksi käydään lyhyesti läpi satoja kaupunkeja kattavan, kasvavan demokratialiikkeen ja osallisuustalouden vision yhteisiä juuria.

Tervetuloa kuuntelemaan ja keskustelemaan!

Parecon eli osallisuustalous (engl. participatory economics) on ehdotus siitä, miten vapaampi ja tasavertaisempi talous voisi toimia. Parecon Finland ry on puoluepoliittisesti sitoutumaton järjestö, joka toimii osallisuustalousvision esittelijänä ja ajajana Suomessa. Järjestöstä tulevat puhumaan sen perustajat Antti Jauhiainen ja Joona-Hermanni Mäkinen.

Aiheesta on tehty myös FB-event.

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4 responses to “Helsingissä luento Pareconista”

  1. Dora Kestilä says :

    The thesis ’kapitalismi ja keskusjohtoinen suunnitelmatalous’ can not be affixed. You only offer refining of the business in general for both kind of capitalism( no-liberalism or welfare state) . The capitalism as a ’modern macroeconomics, as well as the economic policies of governments’ was created by John Maynard Keynes and it was constantly developed in the form of management, also the welfare state was build on the basis of the ’Keynesian-ism'(social liberalism) And now it comes back as a new fashion. Here is an example how Germany saved itself from the crisis started at 2007 with Keynesian-ism.

    An article from SPIEGEL “A Keynesian Success Story”
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,707231-2,00.html

  2. Joona-Hermanni Mäkinen says :

    Hi Dora,

    ”The thesis ‘kapitalismi ja keskusjohtoinen suunnitelmatalous’ can not be affixed.”

    I’m quite not sure what you mean by this.

    ”You only offer refining of the business in general for both kind of capitalism (no-liberalism or welfare state).”

    At the event, we talked about the possibility of managing all economic activities in a society by democratic planning, which is an alternative to markets (almost universal allocation method nowadays) and central planning (allocation method used for example in Soviet Union & other communist countries) introduced in the field of economics. The particular model of democratic planning, that we are introducing in Finland, is participatory economics (osallisuustalous) and it is meant to be more in accord with our desired values, than either markets or central planning. The values we talked about in the event were equity, solidarity, self-management, diversity and efficiency.

    ”The capitalism as a ‘modern macroeconomics, as well as the economic policies of governments’ was created by John Maynard Keynes and it was constantly developed in the form of management, also the welfare state was build on the basis of the ‘Keynesian-ism’(social liberalism) And now it comes back as a new fashion. Here is an example how Germany saved itself from the crisis started at 2007 with Keynesian-ism.”

    Keynesian economic policies made possible the Nordic welfare model, and as we talked thoroughly in the event, at the present time I believe that everyone supporting the aforementioned values, should be pushing for Keynesian reforms. These welfare states (social democracies) accomplished many important reforms in Europe:

    – old age insurance
    – universal health care coverage
    – welfare for those unable to work or find work
    – financial regulation
    – stabilization of the business cycle through fiscal and monetary policies
    – incomes policies to combat cost-push inflation while reducing income inequalities
    – long-run, comprehensive planning policies to promote growth and development.

    At the same time we should be critical towards the social democracies, because now the welfare state is in decline (free market enthusiasts are on the rise) and even with all the keynesian major reforms in the 1960s and 1970s, many structural problems with markest persisted. For example, Nordic welfare states benefited from exploiting the third world countries just like the bigger Western powers and the Nordic countries failed to support resolutely third world movements for national liberation. The other problem is, welfare states participated in the same market dynamics as everyone else, and supported their economic growth in an environmentally unsustainable way.

    I hope you are right about keynesianism coming back, but I’m not that optimistic unless we get a lot of public pressure directed at the big political and economical institutions to correct these structural problems. And we should not repeat the mistakes of the past and just be happy with welfare reforms, which could be pushed back at any time, like we can see is happening now, but we also need to demand new institutions that promote our desired values in a more coherent way, and lead us to a more just and democratic future.

    Best regards,
    Joona-Hermanni Mäkinen
    Parecon Finland

    • Dora Kestilä (@DKestil) says :

      Dears
      I’d told you a few fundamental things
      I mean that can’t say so , because ’keskusjohtoinen suunnitelmatalousis’ is also kind of capitalism. Now in world are operate two types of capitalism, with two types of states and two types of market economy, which are completely different, antagonistic opposing in collision. They are the U.Ś. neo-liberal state and the European welfare state.

      The ’Keynesian-ism’ is central planned capitalism.

      You are not familiar with the history of Europe after World War II, when both parts of Europe-east and west was built ’Keynesian-ism’ with central planning (social capitalism).
      The difference between two parts of Europe was that Eastern Europe under Stalin was building a social capitalism without market economy and relied on the final stage of Karl Marx ”The Capital” – to build communism through a proletarian revolution.
      While western Europe was building ’Keynesian-ism’ without the Marx’s final stage.
      John Maynard Keynes draws on Marx and created the social capitalism, but his ultimate goal wasn’t communism.
      The ’Keynesian-ism’ is European welfare state’s the initial stage , but it was constantly evolving in the management from 60th until the end of 80th

      “At the same time we should be critical towards the social democracies, because now the welfare state is in decline (free market enthusiasts are on the rise) and even with all the keynesian major reforms in the 1960s and 1970s, many structural problems with markest persisted!”

      Well, the decline of the welfare state isn’t a fault of Keynes or not his economy, for this are only purely political reasons.
      It’s a introduction in Europe of American neo-liberalism and its ideology was accepted by the old left, centrist and right political forces, which threw their old ideology’s values ​​and embraced the neo-liberalism as their new ideology. From then they become slaves to America interests and its conductors in Europe for the eradication of the euro and euro area as the largest competitor to the dollar. Now the leadership of the EU (appointed, not elected) performs only neo-liberal policy in favor of US.
      Neoliberalism has nothing to do with the ideology of liberalism before, nor anything to do with democracy, rule of law and national sovereignty. It is predatory and retrograde ideology that has to do with starting, predation phase of capitalism in the 19th century.
      But the political forces of Europe taken it, because the strong smell of money.
      Did you know that now European hasn’t neither left, nor centrists or rightist forces only neo-liberalists without opposition and manages only one political party in Europe – the United People’s Party of only big bourgeois and bankers? Europe has become like the former USSR with one party, this time not left but retrograde right.
      Here I made a comparison between the ideologies of neo-liberalism and the welfare state
      https://torillatavataan.wordpress.com/2011/09/24/torilla-tavataan/

      The neoliberalism generates the global financial crisis and proved that no future, but it remained still in Europe because it continues in U.S. which continues with final efforts and quite artificially maintain its myth of ’First World economic power’ and the dollar for ’first currency’.
      Neo-liberalism is an artificial model for U.S., without people’s rules and was introduced as a political decision of Reagan’s government from top to bottom.

      Neo-liberalism has brought the global crisis in the world, not welfare state, right?

      Neoliberalistite talk about free markets worldwide, unrestricted by any rules, but forget the simplest thing in Bible says – ”can not make the world economy with different salaries.”
      It exactly destroyed the American economy, outsource production in Asia and offshore areas with low wages. Also destroys and Finnish economy and the economies of the welfare states and the cause is in politicians! Free and uncontrolled movement of money and capital without restrictions and rules have brought over-indebtedness of the countries. Did you know that Finland’s foreign debt is now 217% (state and private) both are treated equally on the foreign markets?

      Vice versa the welfare state has risen from the bottom up, with people’s sovereignty and after the crisis proved to be more vibrant and sustainable state model made ​​for people.
      The current European welfare state is well known now as the most developed ’rule of law ’and ’social state’ of the world. While the U.S. neo-liberal state has evolved into the most retrograde form down because losses the democracy , the the rule of law because of neo-liberalism

      Welfare state is built after the war in both parts of Europe, but Western Europe was able to build it, Eastern failed.
      Welfare state has two aspects of the state- The rule of law and social. Both aspects assist, protect and preserve each other. Eastern Europe build only the social aspect, but there wasn’t the rule of law and democracy. Welfare state can’t develop without democracy, free speech and political pluralism. Missing of market fictions and wrong political system were both main reasons for crashing of Eastern European communistic system

      After global crisis all Europeans were convinced that their welfare state is a model of their future. For this began the people’s protests on Wall Street and in Europe, in Wall Street is anti-neoliberal revolution own model and elite against. In Europe is going also anti-neoliberal revolution to expel the neo-liberalism from Europe.

      You don’t know that the neo – liberalism has brought enormous destruction of the world and Europe. I studied the problem for 10 years and I wrote 500 pages book. Across Eastern Europe is completely destroyed from the neo-liberalism, now finds itself in humanitarian catastrophe. My country Bulgaria was completely destroyed- the whole economy and social system, lost more than 3.5 million human resources, the population is now twice less.
      But if you do not want to read me, at least read Tony Judt his book ’ I’ll Fares the Land“ about the neo-liberalism’s defeat .

      Finland has one of the most productive and developed economy in the world and it was built by the welfare state.
      Since the late 80s the biggest Finnish parties( Kokomus, Keskusta, Demarit, KRD) accepted the neoliberalim and began neoliberalism’s era in Finland. Instead of developing welfare state, they stopped its development and began to destroy it. They related the Finnish markets with US market. Now the US is the largest trade partner of Finland. The US economy is now in a huge crisis and can not be developed because of the retrograde principles of neoliberalism. This is a huge threat for Finland. But Finnish neo-liberals do not speak about it in the society , prefer to keep silent about the neoliberalism and are poisoned the minds of younger generation. Did you know that ’Nokia’ has lost due of neoliberal policies of Finnish governments?

      EU and the euro should be maintained, but in other policy and not with the current corrupt to the teeth EU leadership and administration, who provide this neo-liberal policy. The cuurent government of EU must be removed and EU rules of management to be completely changed.

      The debt crisis has shown the complete bankruptcy of the new neo-liberal model pseudo-integration, based on a simple liberalism (neo-liberalism), populism and corruption.
      The fraud and illusions are advantageous for politicians. Now they have to say not just why the strange debt is so high, but where the money are went ?
      The protest of the ordinary people ”occupied Wall Street” followed by European countries exactly want and protest .
      Can’t be a real country with no real production economy, without a national type of economy, no government policy for its support and development. Should be discontinued the neo-liberal policies based on the open market without rules and restrictions, thereby to destroy the European welfare state.
      We must follow and develop the model of European ’welfare state’ and apply its rules on real, to make a highly productive type of national economy, to put severe government restrictions and makes a strong state policy to preserve the production into state frontier and stopping outsourcing in offshore areas with low-wage labor.

      Therefore I suggest to you to fill own knowledge about „neo-liberalism“ , „welfare state“, ”Keynesian ism” , ”Reagan ism” , to estimate the height of built Finnish welfare state and to rewrite own book again.

      Well, honestly I’ll say you, as foreigner I am ashamed of Finns, who can’t see and appreciate what kind a wonderful welfare state have built, for which is envy throughout Europe and can’t protect and develop it.

      Best Regards !

  3. Joona-Hermanni Mäkinen says :

    Hi Dora,

    ”I mean that can’t say so , because ‘keskusjohtoinen suunnitelmatalousis’ is also kind of capitalism. Now in world are operate two types of capitalism, with two types of states and two types of market economy, which are completely different, antagonistic opposing in collision. They are the U.Ś. neo-liberal state and the European welfare state.”

    Ok, now I see your point. We were talking from the point of view of economics, where there in the past seemed to be only two possible basic allocation methods, central planning and markets. And this relates also closely to ”Reaganism” that you mentioned. After the communist countries collapsed (largely centrally planned economies), in the field of economics the free market enthusiasts boomed. ”There is no alternative” slogan from the Thatcher and Reagan administrations took on.

    Back to your point about planning inside capitalism. In the real world these things mix, of course, and after the Great Depression in the US in the 1930s, and especially in the Europe after the WWII, capitalism took a more planned and regulated form with Keynesian policies. But I wrote about this in my last comment, and I don’t see any contradiction with what you’ve been writing. In economic theory, there are nowadays available three different kinds of allocation methods, which are of course only helpful categories and theoretical models, to be precise, but they have their own distinct characteristics – markets, central planning and democratic planning. At the event we were talking about the last one, and especially on one model of democratic planning, participatory economics.

    ”You are not familiar with the history of Europe after World War II, when both parts of Europe-east and west was built ‘Keynesian-ism’ with central planning (social capitalism).”

    I agree fully with the historical context that you’ve provided about the social democracies. My views on social democracies (European keynesian welfare states) are largely based on Michael Harrington’s and Magnus Ryner’s work, and in my view, they are peerless students of social democatic history. What part of my comment made you feel like I’m not familiar with the history of Europe after WWII? If there is some mistake to be corrected, I will gladly do so.

    ”Well, the decline of the welfare state isn’t a fault of Keynes or not his economy, for this are only purely political reasons.”

    I didn’t blame Keynes for the decline of the welfare state. In fact, without Keynes’ insights, we would’ve had a much more terrible century in terms of equitable and fair economy.

    The decline of welfare states attributes to many different factors, but the point is that the decline happened. Something went wrong, and it is crucial to study the causes of that decline. Political and ideological shift is one of them, as you pointed out. There are also dynamics in the markets that favor dismantling the large public sector and public spending. Markets have a tendency to undervalue public spending, to name only one example, and also to resist regulation to an effective extent, to name another.

    Many keynesian policies require that the richest elements of the society are willing to ”play ball”. As Magnus Ryner has pointed out in his work, in Sweden, where the social democratic reforms went furthest, the big owner’s were willing to make major compromises with the unions, pay high capital gain taxes, endure high inflation which affected their property the most etc. But as we know from the example of Sweden, more right-wing owners took charge on the employer side, and the compromises were effectively over.

    ”Neo-liberalism has brought the global crisis in the world, not welfare state, right?”

    Of course. There must be some major misunderstanding here. I hope you’ll explain to me, where you picked up the point that I was blaming welfare states. After all, I wrote in my previous comment: ”Keynesian economic policies made possible the Nordic welfare model, and as we talked thoroughly in the event, at the present time I believe that everyone supporting the aforementioned values, should be pushing for Keynesian reforms.”

    ”You don’t know that the neo – liberalism has brought enormous destruction of the world and Europe. I studied the problem for 10 years and I wrote 500 pages book. Across Eastern Europe is completely destroyed from the neo-liberalism, now finds itself in humanitarian catastrophe.”

    I agree totally (with everything, but the point about me not knowing about neoliberalism’s disastrous effects).

    ”We must follow and develop the model of European ‘welfare state’ and apply its rules on real, to make a highly productive type of national economy, to put severe government restrictions and makes a strong state policy to preserve the production into state frontier and stopping outsourcing in offshore areas with low-wage labor.”

    I wholeheartedly agree. In addition to that, we need to regulate the international financial markets effectively, to try to prevent this catastrophe of not reappearing in the near future, we need to strengthen the collective negotiating power of the workers, we need to demand international taxes or cap & trade policies to help limit the greenhouse gas emissions etc. This still doesn’t mean, that we can’t talk about the possibility to develop some other forms of econonomic allocation, for example participatory economics.

    Markets have many intrinsic problems, that can’t be cured with keynesian reforms, even though I admit that keynesian reforms are something we should try to accomplish at the present time. This means that if we want a truly sustainable, democratic and just economy, we need to look beyond markets at the same time that we are reforming them. If you want to take a deeper look into the structural problems of market systems, which persist also in welfare states, I suggest you read Robin Hahnel’s article ”The Case Against Markets”.

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/35039/Case%20Against%20Markets.pdf

    ”Well, honestly I’ll say you, as foreigner I am ashamed of Finns, who can’t see and appreciate what kind a wonderful welfare state have built, for which is envy throughout Europe and can’t protect and develop it.”

    I feel the same – especially about the developing part.

    Best regards,
    Joona-Hermanni Mäkinen
    Parecon Finland

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